Smart People Podcast

Episode 119 – Joe Whitcomb

Chris: Joe, again, thanks so much for being on the show. I’m really excited to chat with you. I’m recently engaged so every time I learn about somebody who is knowledgeable about relationships I just can’t wait to talk to them because what I’ve learned is it is impossible to … maybe not impossible, but it is very hard to communicate properly and effectively with the opposite sex. Why is that?

Joe: There are a lot of different reasons for that, I think socially, obviously we are raised up, trained very differently by gender distinctions, those distinctions between male and female. The word usages that we have and different things like that and the way our brains are hardwired. Just our DNA makes a big difference.

Even, let’s say for instance, you’re to say something, your girlfriend or fiancé were to say, “I have no clothes to wear.”

Chris: Happens all the time.

Joe: For you, I have no clothes to wear has one set of meaning or perception and it might mean to you that you have nothing clean. For her, it means that she has nothing new to wear and it’s time to go shopping. There’s going to be a distinction between you and her just because of different nuances or iterations and those dances. Those different types of perspectives.

Chris: You know what’s the most frustrating? I didn’t have this plan, but it’s something that took me about three months to figure out once we moved in together was she would put something on and say, “I don’t feel comfortable.” In my mind, I’m, “Then put on sweatpants.” because it’s the most comfortable thing on the planet. Eventually what I got out of her, she meant, I don’t like the way this makes me feel. Not the way I feel in these clothes but the way they make me feel about myself. That’s one of those nuances that blows my mind. I would never … I don’t understand the logic there.

Joe: Right, it’s going to be different. Part of that for us as guys to be able to lean is to that and trying to understand or validate or even [itnork 00:02:04]. All that stuff is just a confusion. What we’re trying to bring to the confusion is clarity and a good way to lean into that and get clarity in our communication is to ask questions, “What is that mean for you to be uncomfortable?” For me it means that I put on sweats, maybe it means something different to you. What does that mean for you? You’re getting down to underneath that into more the meaning of what’s going on within her between the two of you.

Chris: Actually, I really like that because I don’t claim to be and we’re not going to make this episode about Chris but it was just, “Hey, I just had to ask you.” I don’t claim to be that good at asking those questions and it’s something that I had to learn. That’s one of the things we want to talk to you about is how can we communicate better. How can people take tips away both sexes, not just men, but women as well on how to communicate, open those lines for communication?

I want to get into that, but before we do. Could you give us a little background on what you do, how you got there? Why this is something you’ve focused your life and your career around?

Joe: Yeah, there’s four reasons I’m really passionate about and teach and write about relationship stuff. If you’ve been to my blog and my websites and stuff and read my book, one; it’s been really, make way to just pinpoint for most of my life just around my own relationships and going through a lot of the failures that most, everyone goes through.

It’s also the source of my greatest pleasure in life as well and it’s the gnarliest, most adventurous hero’s journey I’ve experienced. Number four, the reason I really got into this is so I can really hold myself to the fire of that work. Like some of us, there’s a part of me that would rather avoid blame, fall asleep and distance myself in relationships. My teaching and facilitating the work it really keeps me accountable to myself and that others. When I don’t live what I teach is that awful feeling that motivates into action or back into this personal integrity.

I want to create and relate tools and community and accountability to people to be able to do that. It’s interesting because we’re now talking all day yesterday and today about Nelson Mandela and [inaudible 00:04:33] 12 years doing some research around … my company’s called The Relationship Society. We designed this thing, the way or really creating connection.

I’ve spent a whole decade looking at reconciliation and hearing and fractured relationships and looking at what is it that it’s not the task in finding love, it’s looking at all the ways and all the barriers to love that stop us from really being able to create those authentic connections.

Our book and the work we do is not looking at how do we find it but what are the barriers, what are the things that prevent us and stop us from really having true intimacy and connections. Especially for us men, because as men we really have a hard time making those authentic connections with women and having that vulnerability and having that. I think we’re growing in that, I think there’s evolution to that. I’m really taking a step of looking at intimate relationships as a transformative path, meaning that we’re broken in relationship and that we can find really healing and restoration in relationship through relationship.

Chris: I’d like to go in to that because I believe the same thing and I think when you find that person and you look forward to coming home to them and all that, it adds a new level of just happiness and just fulfillment. But in the same token, as you even mentioned, it can also be the greatest source of pain and just all the bad emotions as well. Do we all have to face both of those and you just work through them and ride the tidal wave? Are there ways to maximize the good and minimize the bad if you will?

Joe: I think it’s really stepping into that whole process and accepting and going through both the good and the bad, because that’s the whole transformative stuff. I’ve gone through some really hellacious, painful relationships and those are my … that heroes journey, that’s where I’ve had the greatest amount of growth is going through some of that pain. I think for most people, it’s really learning to unearth our own story and that can be hard but not nearly as [go 00:06:46] spending you lives running from it.

Embracing our vulnerabilities as risky as that is but it’s not nearly as dangerous as giving up on love and belonging and joy. It’s creating those experiences that make us most vulnerable. Only when we’re brave and that we’re courageous enough to explore that darkness, are we going to be able to discover more of that infinite power of our light in relationships but cultivating that love can be really hard.

Chris: We interviewed Brene Brown who talks a lot about vulnerability and it was the first time that I’d ever put meaning behind that word really and looked at it at myself as a mid-20s guy at that time and just, “Oh, I’m not vulnerable.” or whatever. But when you allow yourself to be and open yourself up to apologize or to fall in love or to connect to somebody on a level that allows them to hurt you. I do think it adds a new layer of discovery for yourself.

Joe: Absolutely, that’s exactly right. I actually trained and did a lot of work with Brene Brown, she’s one of the people in my life that has really impacted me the most and really relating it back to that vulnerability and different things like that. I find that helping couples to not just survive but to really thrive in their relationships.

Chris: Let’s talk about thriving in a relationship. What have you found in all your experience, as you mentioned, with the relationship society? Actually, we’ll get into that in a little bit. What have you found in talking to all these people tend to be common themes of why relationships aren’t succeeding? How do you recommend we move through that?

Joe: At first I think a couple who wants to thrive and really deepen over the long haul, they really need to have two pieces in place. One; they have to have a shared context and second; they really need to have shared language or tools that they’re able to work with. Like you’re saying, those distinctions between you and your fiancé, those are distinctions or differences. In other words, if one person is growing the other isn’t, it’s not going to work. When one will simply outgrow the other person and what we want to try to do is we want to engage them. Because when the one that’s growing, one’s going to feel judged while the other one is going to feel unmatched or unseen or not connected to.

Of course, if that couple wants to stay in that relationship, they could possibly make it work if the growth pointed person is going to abandon themselves include with the less growth oriented person’s fear. Basically what they’re going to end up saying is, “I love you so much. I’m going to stop growing for you.” This agree to disagree approach is … that complacency is rooted in fear for both parties. It’s going to be important that if they’re going to try to make it work, help them lead to … that part, that little … we call it their vicious cycle or their vortex they both get into this leads to endless frustration, struggle or an overall giving up or settling or checking out or whatever.

I see that often, but there’s another way and believe it or not, we want to be able to have … they can have what they really want [relationably 00:10:07]. It requires that they love themselves deeper and that they’re able to find a possibility or that [monabilty 00:10:14] and that they heal even from their own past that’s showing up in the present.

If they can find ways like I’ve had to really commit myself to this and how the other couples commit themselves is, the game here is getting the other person to love us. We give up that game, we’re giving up the game of getting the other person to love us just the right way and that ends.

Chris: It’s funny, Jon and I tried to approach this from a semi-outsider’s perspective and think about it from a listener’s perspective as well as our own, but when it’s something like relationships it’s so personal that you can help to put your own experiences. It helps because what you’re saying I know is something that I deal with and I’m sure, that means a lot of other people deal with.

I wanted to talk to you about, for example, say you have that one person wants to grow, the other doesn’t. I could see that power struggle coming often. Personally, it switches, sometimes one person wants to grow, the other times the other person. Is there a way to gently nudge them or how do you recommend they come together and grow together as supposed to grow apart?

Joe: There’s a lot of different onramps or approaches to that. I think making sure they have a secure connection and their safe haven as a safe haven approach to that and they’re talking. It really comes back to looking at ourselves. I always talk about the power of one. It only takes one person to really change the rhythm of a dance.

For instance, a lot of guys will say, “I’d like to say something to my woman or to her without her freaking out.” Why is her reaction really a problem? What’s wrong with your partner freaking out? I think for most of us, we have it that the reason that we hold back our truth in relationship is because our partner can’t handle it or they’re going to get upset.

The main reason many of us hold back is that we are afraid. What are we afraid of? Afraid of what? A few things, but mainly our reaction to their reaction. We’re afraid of our own stuff that gets triggered when they get triggered. This is the [mesh 00:12:23] dance in relationships. I can’t be me because I might upset you so I protect myself or withhold what I really want to say.

Meanwhile, I’m robbing my significant other, my woman or whomever, the opportunity to grow by not saying anything. Part of that is, “Okay. So what is the other person gets upset?” That’s really their problem not yours. If we’re on it, we want to make space for their reactivity and love them through it. We have to learn how to be smarter and more courageous than this in relationships especially is we care about being who we truly are and specially if we love and really do love the other person. We got to give them a chance and trust that they kindle who we are. It’s getting back to that dance and this is where the relationship can be very transformative when both people are giving each other permission to show up and be honest and truth each other in love.

Chris: I love that, and I love the quote, “It only takes one person to change a dance.” That’s going to be somewhere in our future book or something, I can guarantee you that. Also, what you were saying, I really understand because I know the way I communicate, the way I handle things just to be very verbal and the way my fiancé communicates tends to be very internal.

I’m worried, I’m going to just start getting all loud in Italian and what not and not be able to deal with her internalizing it and then it’s going to create more angst in myself. I can see that, it’s owning your own reality and saying it’s not about what I say makes me feel. It’s about getting it out there and letting them own it to be an individual as well as a partner.

Chris: I wanted to touch on the individual aspects real quick because one of the things that I see happened so often are, people change who they are in relationships and they tend to go away from that individual that they are. I guess I recently saw something where there is some study out there saying that the one thing that keeps people together so long now is for each partner to remain an individual and seek out those interest that they have and those things that make them happy. Is there a balance that you need to strike there with being an individual where at some point it becomes too selfish where you’re not letting that other person be part of you as well. Does that makes sense?

Joe: Absolutely. I think that idea of co-creating “Who am I? Where am I going? What do I stand for and fight for my higher purpose?” having a good strong sense of who I am in a relationship is very powerful because if I walk in a room, I’m not changing, but at the same time how do we create a we? We have I to we, the we is really that co-created part of us where we talk about dreams, desires, wishes, needs, wants. The people that are in hell relationships are the ones where there is not a give and take or some reciprocity or … but if freedom to love is not a demand that you meet my needs necessarily. You’re not there to demand a need to be met. That’s a childhood, that’s a little kid making demands for needs we met.

It is taking the adult stance of being loved and asking for needs we met and talking through those things because the adult’s stance in relationship is saying, “Hey, this is a wish or want or need. Are you able to fulfill that need? Yes or no, or later or whatever.” You’re able to have that conservation about needs. If I’m a lover which I am, I’m going to be able to meet the needs of my other spouse. You get into these dynamics and in our book we talk about love styles or attachments styles, these ways of relating or not relating. It’s important that … and part of it is we also look at our needs and what those emotional needs are and how those emotional needs are met. There’s tons, we could go over a hundred different emotional needs and needs. We cover about 12 different emotional needs and six other basic core needs that are in relationship.

When you’re co-creating, you’re looking at ways to fulfill those needs from a place of love which is a betterment of the other person which is really more an unconditional love or a love that is there to serve and look for the betterment of the other person but it’s not [ending 00:17:17] style.

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Chris: Yeah, I like that too thinking about it as you mentioned it comparing it to a child. A child demands things. I want to talk about, as you mentioned the I to we and I know in your book you talked about we three, the we three idea. I want to open that up to you. The book is Reboot Your Relationship Restoring Love Through Real Connection in a Disconnected World. That opens a whole pleather of topics I don’t want to get into with the whole disconnection. Could you first explain what’s that we three idea?

Joe: It irrationally started as a system, a program I put together about 12 years ago on empowering through education, experiential and entertainment. There was a seminar they did, it’s three to four days that we bring couples through. It’s a process that we really connect them to and engage them into the world of really authentic relate connection and dialogue through a three day process, three or four day process.

We get them and we use movies, music, different things like that and experiential exercises are jumping off tables, bungee jumping, all sorts of experiential things but to get them engaged and re-engaged. But we basically take them through that whole system over the three days to connect with that vulnerability, their emotional connection looking at their eye, “Who am I?” How do they get put together looking at their family and [origin 00:20:05] stuff, looking at things that how did I get put together? What are the things that make me me, my identity, my personality?

We go through that and we look at the adult attachment styles that we’re shaped and formed early on and then we move them through that process and help them identify their love style whether they’re a pursuer or an avoider in their relationship, or more chaotic and there’s trauma. How do they move from that eye to … because it’s almost like they have to learn, unlearn or relearn who the six people are in their relationship, right?

The six people are me and how I view me; me how I view you; you how you view you; you how you view me and then there’s truth, reality in looking at how we really showing up in the relationship. Really, rediscovering that relationship and reconnecting those parts.

Chris: What I pull out of that, and you glazed over, it was the love styles. Could you tell us a little bit more about that because I am a big fan of self-discovery and stuff. I’ve done every Myer’s, Briggs and all these, I like knowing what style. I want to hear what type of love styles you’ve found that people have.

Joe: Bolby talks a lot about our attachments styles and that was originally flushed out in the 50s around the different stuff around more of the pursuer, initiator in relationships versus more of the avoidant attachment style or distance. You have where people have trauma, there’s more of that type of attachments now.

The five love styles that we talk about in our book are these childhood attachments or imprints from our past. We have the avoider, the [more 00:21:51] vacillator if you’re familiar with that type of style relating. It’s come close, get away. It’s a more of a chaotic cat and mouse stance that they do. More of a pleaser.

We also talk about the controller or the victim. We also talk about the more secure attachment styles. Those can all be … if you want me to break them down for you I can certainly go through that. There are different ways of relating and typically what couple don’t realize is that you don’t normally see a pursuer-pursuer or pleaser-pleaser relationship because it just creates this dynamic that can be a little chaotic in some ways and you don’t normally see two avoiders in relationship and that dynamic doesn’t usually occur except for one night stands. You have the one night stand, the two avoiders together just to fulfill one [space 00:22:51] of time.

They usually don’t make that connection, they don’t really connect. You have the pleasers and the vacillators and these are different things that we talk about. Ultimately what I want to try to have couples realize is that we talked about that transformative path of creating a secure connection. Really, discovering, learning how they can create that secure attachment is when we look at what home had guided them as children toward a secure imprint as an adult.

If you’re a secure connector we find that these people are more comfortable with reciprocity and balance in giving and receiving in their relationships and they can describe their strengths and witnesses of themselves and others without idealizing or devaluating. You don’t see that splitting or all good, all bad, oh nothing, black and white so much. They’re able to stay connected and reflect and do all that stuff that … and you’re healthy and you have that high level of emotional intelligence. They’re really good at setting boundaries and saying no and yes and saying yes to live and relationships and they’re more comfortable with new situations and can take risks. All those things that go on when you have a real secure connection. That’s the ideal I guess.

Jon: I have to ask real quick, who does the avoider match up with?

Joe: Usually the avoider will typically match up with a pursuer or a vacillator because then [you’ll 00:24:23] find someone that … because they feel the gap. But usually, the avoider has a great fear of [meshed 00:24:32] or losing themselves in the relationship and then the pursuer has a great fear of abandon and a rejection. You see the pursuer do … and you see that dance where the pursuer pursues and then overtime, at first, it makes the avoider feel a sense of oxygen and connection but it’s outside of themselves but then overtime they feel overwhelmed and so they shut down and withdraw and distance themselves which creates panic of course.

Other than that there’s a protest and the purser pursues more because then you see the withdrawer distancing and going to the bat cave overtime and avoiding the relationship. You get that protest and the depression, disbarment and eventually that pursuer will detach from the relationship completely and withdraw. As soon as they start withdrawing and distancing then that sets up the alarm system for the withdrawer or the distance and that’s normally 85% men. Men generally are more of the pursuer in the relationship if that makes sense.

Chris: It’s funny because I feel you were describing … Jon and I go back a long time and I feel like …

Jon: Not dating wise.

Chris: With the avoider, you were perfectly describing Jon a lot of times and then you said, mostly though the men are the pursuer and I was, “Oh boy.”

Joe: Generally the withdrawer I should say if I made a mistake. They will generally be one the one that is in avoidance or distancing in the relationship than say a female.

Chris: Yeah, that’s Jon. I’ll be, “No dude, give her a chance, she likes you.” He’ll be, “But then it’s a lot of pressure and it’s just easier if I go to my bat cave.” I’m, “Really?” I call this studio the bat cave too. I started laughing when you said that.

 

Jon: Full disclosure, I got engaged when I was 25 and then that didn’t worked out. I had a span of three, four years of dating that it was exactly that where I’d go two months of dating and then just withdraw completely.

Chris: Just bail.

Jon: Yeah.

Joe: Focusing on gender, we’re talking about that. John Gottman who is a big guy up in the marriage clinic up in Seattle had found out that when men are far more likely than women to be like stone wallers or avoiders by 85%. Men avoid emotional conflicts by going off by themselves. If you ask a mail stone waller to describe his state of mind, he’s going to often say, “I’m trying not to react.” though his wife or girlfriend perceives his silence as an act of hostility and likely interpret his response as a rejection of her. She couldn’t imagine him needing to withdraw over such a minor criticism.

We talked about this interactions around these interactions I produced what we call a viscous cycle, especially marriage or relationships where there’s high levels of conflict. The more the girlfriend or wife complain and criticize, the more the husband/boyfriend withdraw on stone wall and the more husband have stone wall the more the wives complain and criticize.

What we try to work with in these relationship intensives is that this cycle has to be broken if the relationship is going to avoid dissolution. If the wife becomes belligerent and contemptuous the husband is likely who would drive it more. What we try to say is that no matter what style of relationship or marriage couples have adopted, their discussions for the most part are carried along by this more strong undercurrent of two basic ingredients that make it successful and that can be love and respect or acceptance.

I talked a lot about what’s called wabi-sabi love which is another thing we can go into. These are the direct opposite of and the antidote for contempt and perhaps contempt is the most corrosive force in the relationship. All the ways these partner show each other love and respect also insure that those what we call your positive and negative ratio of a relationship will be heavily tilted more to the positive side, 5:1, we want to make sure that we’re ramping that up.

All that, we mean there’s this mutual respect for an enjoyment of each other’s company. They’re not just getting along but they’re also able to support each other’s hopes and aspirations and build a sense of purpose in their lives together. That’s really what we mean when we talk about honor and respecting each other and in the relationship or marriage we want, them to need to understand the bottom line difference that is causing the conflict between them and to learn how to live with it by honor and respecting each other. I hope that makes sense, but that cycle, you see that viscous cycle, a dance you get into. We call it a dance.

Chris: That was one of the clearest ways that I’ve heard it but Jon and I were just laughing and looking at each other because the thing you said is so true and two stereotype genders, it could be vice versa. But it’s just one person does one thing which sets the other person off who reacts away. They don’t enjoy it and then they keep going at it. Everybody’s, I think , been in that relationship and sometimes you can bring it back up to a healthy relationship but it takes both people to step outside of themselves, open up, drop the contempt which …

Man, if you haven’t been in a relationship where you had contempt for the other person, I don’t even know if you’re really living because that happens. I wanted you talk about … I didn’t catch the word, I think it was like wabi-sabi love, but you said it’s the opposite of the [contemptual 00:30:33] relationship. I was hoping you could expand on that a little bit.

Joe: Yeah, wabi-sabi. There was a book, it’s not my idea but it is part of our book and we talk about [inaudible 00:30:42] intensives.  There’s this old ancient Japanese principle and it’s an art form around the art of imperfection. What they do is take these amazing vases that are cracked and the crack, what they’ll do, I wish I could show you a picture here. Where there’s a crack, these imperfections, they will layer in like 24 karat gold and then put it in to a museum and shine light on that crack as a way of extenuating and honoring those imperfections.

When we look at relationships, again, it’s not just acknowledging those differences, truly a heartfelt unconditional love of acceptance for that other person, those differences and valuing those differences. I call it fierce grace or deep compassion. When you understand the brokenness and where that crack comes from, it changes everything.

We talk about as being wabi-sabi love, and it’s a fun way of really getting couples to connect to those parts instead of judging it or condemning or making the cracks wrong or bad. We want them to go from annoyed to enjoyed, they’re enjoying each other more.

Chris: I love that. I love the visual behind it. I really enjoy that idea, the cracked vase with the gold in there because you hear that a lot. You hear the imperfections of the things you miss or you should go to love. It sounds, when it’s put that way, it’s, “Well, why would I love imperfections?” because I’d rather …

Jon: Because it makes us who we are Chris. Come one.

Chris: Yeah, but [inaudible 00:32:33] to be perfect. But, that’s ridiculous and I like the visual because it does bring you back to that, what Chris just said and what you said, is like you do have to understand. I have imperfections so I can ask for somebody to not love those.

Joe: Exactly. When you get to that space of really admiring those distinctions and admiring those things, it’s amazing because then everything changes. It changes everything because now the things … you get to understand what those dragons are, those vulnerabilities or raw spots and you learn to go, “Okay, we’re not dancing around and we’re not walking on egg shells but we really truly honor that.” and finding a way of loving and admiring one another. That’s one of the things we talked about in our seminar is we talked about admiration, it’s a such a big part of it, it’s one of our six core human needs is around admiration or significance.

Because if I were to say to you, “Hey Jon, I really love you but I don’t admire you.” or “I admire you but I don’t love you.” one of those two ways. You got to have both the love and admiration or respect.

I had one of my guys who is leaving, Mike, he’s a pro-golfer, he’s leaving on a seminar a couple of months ago. I was talking about this idea, wabi-sabi love and admiration for his wife and he had heard this before but he was leaving in the middle of the seminar. I said, “Hey Mike, where are you going?” He goes, “Hey Joe, I’m sorry. I really have to go. My wife is having … she’s got this art exhibit she’s doing.” I said, “Hey Mike, so you love art?” He goes, “No. I hate art.” I said, “Why are you going?” He said, “Because I love it when my wife comes alive and she’s doing what she loves and her eyes, her body and everything is engaged in what she’s doing. This passion of hers and I just love seeing my wife come alive.” He goes, “That’s the most sexiest ever.” He was off and leaving and I go, “That is awesome.”

That is so cool because who does that? Really showing up and loving and admiring their spouse even though it’s not … because you’re asking, what do we do about things and co-creating? That is such an important thing is, really, loving and embracing those differences.

Chris: That’s a really cool story too and I think something that every couple I know and a bunch of my friends in that stage or they’re recently married, you quickly learn. There a lot of things that … my fiancé hates it when I watch football but we’ve gotten to the point where she’s, “All right, you can have your Sundays.” You have to cohabitate and live with that person instead of trying to change them.

Joe: Right.

Chris: We talked a lot about some things and I wanted to just give you a minute because I love some of the quotes, some of the sound bites you’ve given us. If you could sum up what you dive into in your book, Reboot Your Relationship, which aspect do you focus on there so that people who have heard what you talked about and everything and want to check it out, what they can expect?

Joe: We really talk about how relationships, the journey, the intimate pathway that they can find within themselves that the relationship can really be a place of healing and transformation, restoration within and between. This is a journey, it’s our hero’s journey, it’s our process. We take them on this journey from I to we and we take them through three different stages of that. Because we want them to bring that part of them, bring that aliveness back, the freedom, the self-expression, the power, the authenticity and the real connection that they can have through authentic communication.

Chris: Exactly. I know Jon and I both really enjoyed the idea of the Hero’s Journey. The only Ted conference Jon and I have ever gone to even though we want to go to more is that there was a TEDX and the whole theme of the conference was the Hero’s Journey by Joseph Campbell. And because we’ve lived it, it’s a reason we started the podcast and we’ve both had career transitions and everything. I love that connection you make between going through that journey as part of being in a relationship and connecting with others. That’s really great.

Where else can our listeners go to check it out? I know you have a website, you mentioned the relationship society. How do they find you and learn these things? Can they follow you and get advice that we all need? People might say they don’t but we need it when it comes to relationships.

Joe: Absolutely. In Facebook I have, it’s www.facebook.com/therelationshipsociety. As well as we have our website, The Relationship Society. I have this amazing business partner, Savannah Ellis who’s Australian and we’ve been working together and we do a lot of infidelity coaching around trauma and relationships and that’s infedlitycoach-la.com. Then we have our blog, rebootrelationship.blogspot.com and they can find all that information that way.

Chris: That’s awesome, and we’ll put those links on there so people can go to smartpeoplepodcast.com an check out the most recent post with you in this episode and we will link to that and your book. Joe, this has been awesome. I really appreciate you chatting with us. It’s something that we’re all trying to master the art of connection and relationships. Men and women do have their differences but we have to figure out a way to get them pass them or else we would all be single lonely souls.

Joe: And really celebrate those differences because when you start celebrating like the wabi-sabi stuff and really connecting to that then that transformation can really start taking hold. Really embracing those differences and loving those differences because that’s really the thing that makes the whole world go round.

Chris: Joe, thanks again.

Joe: Perfect, thank you.

Chris: All right, thank you.

Jon: Have a good night.

Joe: You too.